Talk:True Dweomers

I'll get you a template today. For the monk colors, that's easy enough to do, but I'm guessing you mean on the spell list tables, not inside each spell page, right?

er...yes?  make it look the same as spells...only COOLER

now that i think about it....would it be possible to put the colors into the TD pages?  if it's a PITA, don't worry about it

ty for the headsup on the TD templates. point of order: do we want a different name than TDx?

hellball 10 evo
animus blast 11 conj
peripety 12 abj
pestilence 13 ill
soul dominion 14 necro

System and Structure

New True Dweomer Damage Model

Spell Circle	Burn Cost	Min Level	Base Dice	max dice	range	avg	perfected
TD1	+1	21st	1d6+6/CL	31d6+186	217-372	294.5	744
TD2	+1	23rd	1d6+8/CL	31d6+248	279-434	356.5	868
TD3	+1	25th	1d6+9/CL	32d6+288	320-480	400	960
TD4	+1	27th	1d6+10/CL	32d6+320	392-512	452	1024
TD5	+1	29th	1d6+11/CL	33d6+363	399-561	480	1122
TD6	+1	31st	1d6+13/CL	33d6+429	462-627	544.5	1254
TD7	+1	33rd	1d6+15/CL	34d6+510	544-714	629	1428
TD8	+1	35th	1d6+16/CL	34d6+544	588-748	668	1496
TD9	+1	37th	1d6+17/CL	35d6+595	630-805	717.5	1610

True Dweomers are affected by metamagic feats, but note that many of the more potent feats have such a large level adjustment, they cannot be fit onto the higher level true dweomers without use of a magic wand or spell research.

• range

true Dweomers can use any range

• area of effect

true dweomers with AOE's tend to be LARGE, up to thousands of feet, miles, even leagues. note that metamagic can make even that larger.

• saves

true dweomers follow the basic rule 'no auto effects', but may impose severe save penalties in exchange for smaller range and/or area of effect, to the extreme of the example below "Corrupt Dweomers"

Current status

• True Dweomers - data compilation begun
• for balance pass, need to take into account the true-dweomer damage capacities of clerics, mages, druids, bard, paladins, rangers, etc. ergo, need to develop a bare-bones 'early implementation' of TD's

Proposed mechanics: exactly like spells, except you only learn one true dweomer of level 10 'spontaneously'. you can take Truemagic feats to learn more, and git gud with them.

• Require skill rolls vs DC's to cast. To cast a True Dweomer as a Full Round action requires a Bailiwick Skill Roll vs a Hard DC for the Caster's current level. Casting as a standard action or swift action requires a Challenging DC roll. Truemagic Feats give bonuses to these rolls. (see below)
• Casting a True Dweomer as a ritual takes much longer and more 'stuff' (magic circle, altar, implements and unguents, horrifying sacrifices, etc) but does not require a bailiwick skill roll. Such Rituals typically require a day or longer.
• can a 'DC to cast' field be added to the spell template?

We need to talk about having a bailiwick skill check to cast TD's.  I assume this would be in addition to any to-hit rolls or saving throws the spell causes? So there would be two chances to fail to cast any TD?  Is this good game design?  

maybe?  i almost ditched this mechanic, but, the skill roll to cast it has been part of the TD's since the very early days, and I want to keep the 'flavor' of it. they're also scaled to be REALLY good, so I'm cool with making them feel special.  your various ideas about DC's and effects below are excellent, and we should do some or most of that.

I understand the desire to make them feel different (above and beyond the 'need a feat to even get one' part), but I think adding a second chance to fail is not great. Can we discuss this tonight?

sure! ...maybe.  might be a tomorrow thing.

My initial thought is this: keep the bailiwick skill check, but make it so it doesn't affect success or failure of the spell, but rather casting time and efficacy of the spell (a bad roll could make it do half damage before to-hits or saves, for example, while a good roll might allow it to be cast as a standard or even move action with normal damage).  We may also want to revisit the secondary (to-hit/save) roll mechanics... I'm thinking TDs should ALWAYS do something, even on a miss or a successful save.  

If we do keep the skill check, I'll need more info... is the CR of the check fixed based on the spell level of the TD? Or does it fluctuate based on the caster level casting it? (If the latter, why would it be harder for a high level caster to cast the same spell as a lower-level caster?)  I would recommend that the DC be fixed by spell level (this is also much easier to program into a template).

i was going to make it fluctuate by the CL of the caster, and the justification is that as you get higher level, the true dweomer gets harder to use because its more advanced. if yu hate that notion, we can discuss.

Example:

• Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):

• Impossible DC (52) - cast as move action
• Hard DC (47) - cast as standard action
• Challenging DC (43) - full round action
• Average DC (38) - full round action, mana-burning costs double?
• Easy DC (33) - full round action, cannot mana-burn?
• Failure (Less than easy, or natural 1) - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)?

DC's would then scale based on when the spell slots are potentially available... we can haggle over exact DC's, if you want, but they need to be reachable as soon as someone has TD's available...

we can chat about this, but it seems pretty complex....  hrrrm.  also, can never cast faster than a standard without a metamagic feat, so all the diffs would move down a rank.  example:

Counterexample:

• Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):

• Impossible DC (52) - cast as standard action
• Hard DC (47) - cast as full round action
• Challenging DC (43) - full round action, mana-burning costs double?
• Average DC (38) - full round action, cannot mana-burn?
• Easy DC or lower (33) - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)?

Examples of new True Dweomers

• 10th Corrupt Dweomers:

• 11th

• 12th

• 13th Accursed Dweomers:

• 14th

Examples of new Feats

Truemagic Feats

• Truemagic Scribe - learn three new true dweomers of 10th or 11th level, +1 circumstance bonus to skill rolls to fast cast, level 16 to take
• Truemagic Supplicant - learn three new true dweomers of 10th thru 13th levels, +1 circumstance bonus to skill rolls to fast cast, level 21 to take
• Truemagic Ordinate - learn five new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, +1 circumstance bonus to skill rolls to fast cast, ignore 1's, level 21 to take
• Truemagic Nominate - learn six new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, +1 circumstance bonus to skill rolls to fast cast, level 26
• Truemagic Heirophant - learn seven new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, +1 circumstance bonus to skill rolls to fast cast, level 31

this model has 5 TD levels, and gives 25 TD spells and +5 to fast-cast them (rolling vs Impossible) for 5 feats

• never use untyped. Use Circumstance.

okies!

• why unlock 10th and 11th at the same time? Why not one level at a time?

i thought about this, and five feats to get 14's seems...a lot.  so i scaled them down. not married to this notion, but i also don't want to punish folks.  the two topmost feats are still PLENTY nice. over half of all potential TD spells are up there. 

• first feat need to be available at 16th, since you can get 10th level slots at 19

oh, lookit that.... i re-scaled them all, actually looking this time :D