Talk:True Dweomers: Difference between revisions

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Need a True Dweomer Spell template (i tried to use the monk colors, but it didn't work. i think that color scheme is badass and should be the true dweomer colors) this needs to include "full round at Hard, standard or less at challenging" casting times, and maybe the mana burning rules....
I'll get you a template today.  For the monk colors, that's easy enough to do, but I'm guessing you mean on the spell list tables, not inside each spell page, right?
also need TD|x damage templates, unless you wanna chew those over before we commit
this already exists. Use <nowiki>"{{Circle|TD3}}"</nowiki> (using TD1, TD2, through TD9; must be capitalized). Please test it out and verify the numbers, especially if the numbers changed in the last two or so years.
i can probably knock out plenty of these to roll with pretty quickly, this shouldn't slow us down on the balance pass
hellball 10 evo
animus blast 11 conj
peripety 12 abj
pestilence 13 ill
soul dominion 14 necro






==System and Structure==
==System and Structure==
*damage scaling
True Dweomers do MUCH more damage than levl 9 spells, unless extensive manaburning happens. 


{| class="ep-default"
{| class="ep-default"
|+ '''New True Dweomer Damage Model'''
|+ '''New True Dweomer Damage Model'''
! Spell Circle || Burn Cost || Min Level || Base Dice|| max dice || range || avg || perfected
! Spell Strata || Burn Cost || Min Level || Base Dice|| max dice || range || avg   ||    Enhanced  ||  Maximized  ||  Max+Enh || Perfected  ||  Absolute
|-
|-
| TD1   || +1 || 21st || 1d6+6/CL || 31d6+186 || 217-372 || 294.5 || 744
| 1   || +3 || 19th || 1d6+6/CL || 35d6+210 || 245-420 || 332.5 ||   367.5    ||  420    ||    455  ||    490  ||    525
|-
|-
| TD2   || +1 || 23rd || 1d6+8/CL || 31d6+248 || 279-434 || 356.5 || 868
| 2   || +3 || 21st || 1d6+7/CL || 35d6+245 || 280-455 || 367.5 ||   402.5    ||  455    ||    490  ||    525  ||    560
|-
|-
| TD3   || +1 || 25th || 1d6+9/CL ||      32d6+288 || 320-480 || 400 || 960
| 3   || +3 || 23rd || 1d6+8/CL ||      35d6+280 || 315-490 || 402.5 ||   437.5    ||  490    ||    525  ||    560  ||    595
|-
|-
| TD4   || +1 || 27th || 1d6+10/CL ||      32d6+320    || 392-512 || 452 || 1024
| 4   || +3 || 25th || 1d6+9/CL ||      35d6+315        || 350-525 || 437.5 ||   472.5    ||  525    ||    560  ||    595  ||    630
|-
|-
| TD5   || +1 || 29th || 1d6+11/CL ||      33d6+363 || 399-561 || 480 || 1122
| 5   || +3 || 27th || 1d6+10/CL ||      35d6+350 || 385-560 || 472.5 ||   507.5    ||  560    ||    595  ||    630  ||    665
|-
|-
| TD6   || +1 || 31st || 1d6+13/CL ||       33d6+429 || 462-627 || 544.5 || 1254
| 6   || +3 || 29th || 1d6+11/CL ||     35d6+385 || 420-595 || 507.5 ||   542.5    ||  595    ||    630  ||    665  ||    700
|-
|-
| TD7   || +1 || 33rd || 1d6+15/CL ||       34d6+510 || 544-714 || 629 || 1428
| 7   || +3 || 31st || 1d6+12/CL ||     35d6+420 || 455-630 || 542.5 ||   577.5    ||  630    ||    665  ||    700  ||    735
|-
|-
| TD8 ||  +1 || 35th || 1d6+16/CL ||       34d6+544 || 588-748 || 668 || 1496
| 8 ||  +3 || 33rd || 1d6+13/CL ||     35d6+455 || 490-665 || 577.5 ||   612.5    ||  665    ||    700  ||    735  ||    770
|-
|-
| TD9 ||  +1 || 37th || 1d6+17/CL ||      35d6+595 || 630-805 || 717.5 || 1610
| 9 ||  +3 || 35+ || 1d6+14/CL ||      35d6+490 || 525-700 || 612.5 ||   647.5    ||  700    ||    735  ||    770  ||    805
|}
|}


True Dweomers are affected by metamagic feats, but note that many of the more potent feats have such a large level adjustment, they cannot be fit onto the higher level true dweomers without use of a magic wand or spell research.
===Things that can be spell buffed===


*initiative = enchant
*death checks (minor) = necro
*Maneuver Offense = trans
*Maneuver Defense = abj
*Maneuver Damage adders (scale this HEAVY) = abj
*Maneuver Damage bonus Dice (scale this HEAVY) = evoc


*+to-hit (major) = ill
*Melee to-hit = trans
*ranged to-hit = trans
*spell(ray) to-hit = necro




*range
Adders to
*All damage (major!!) = evoc
*melee dam = trans
*ranged dam = ench
*ray dam = ill
*spell dam  (major!) = ill


true Dweomers can use any range


Damage dice added to
*All damage (major!!) = abj
*melee dam = trans
*ranged dam = conj
*ray dam = ill
*spell dam  (major!) = ench


*area of effect


true dweomers with AOE's tend to be LARGE, up to thousands of feet, miles, even leagues.  note that metamagic can make even that larger.
bonuses to  
*weapon Crit range = trans
*weapon crit severity = necr
*weapon Crit bonus dice = ench
*weapon crit numeric adders = ill
*skill crit range = ench
*skill crit severity = ill
* skill rolls (+1 to +2)


*saves
Move
*All Move (Major!) = tran
*Walk: walk, run, double move 5-ft steps, brachiate = minor = trans, conj
*Swim: lesser, greater, jet = ench, trans
*Fly: lesser, greater = necro, conj
*Hover, Vault = ench, conj
*Teleport: lesser, greater (major) = evoc, abj
*Burrow, earth glide? nobuffs!


true dweomers follow the basic rule 'no auto effects', but may impose severe save penalties in exchange for smaller range and/or area of effect, to the extreme of the example below "Corrupt Dweomers"
==Current status==
* True Dweomers - data compilation complete




==TD Template==


<pre>
{{Template:TD


==Current status==
| Level=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Level}}}
* True Dweomers - data compilation begun
| Level|
* for balance pass, need to take into account the true-dweomer damage capacities of clerics, mages, druids, bard, paladins, rangers, etc.  ergo, need to develop a bare-bones 'early implementation' of TD's
}}</onlyinclude>


Proposed mechanics: exactly like spells, except you only learn one true dweomer of level 10 'spontaneously'. you can take Truemagic feats to learn more, and git gud with them.
| School=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|School}}}
| School|
}}</onlyinclude>


* Require skill rolls vs DC's to cast. To cast a True Dweomer as a Full Round action requires a Bailiwick Skill Roll vs a Hard DC for the Caster's current level. Casting as a standard action or swift action requires a Challenging DC roll. Truemagic Feats give bonuses to these rolls. (see below)
| Components=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Components}}}
* Casting a True Dweomer as a ritual takes much longer and more 'stuff' (magic circle, altar, implements and unguents, horrifying sacrifices, etc) but does not require a bailiwick skill roll.  Such Rituals typically require a day or longer.
| Components|
* can a 'DC to cast' field be added to the spell template? do we have defined templates for the TD1 circles?
}}</onlyinclude>


We need to talk about having a bailiwick skill check to cast TD's.  I assume this would be in addition to any to-hit rolls or saving throws the spell causes? So there would be two chances to fail to cast any TD?  Is this good game design?  I understand the desire to make them feel different (above and beyond the 'need a feat to even get one' part), but I think adding a second chance to fail is not great.  Can we discuss this tonight?
| Range=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Range}}}
| Range|
  <!-- Values: Self, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>


My initial thought is this: keep the bailiwick skill check, but make it so it doesn't affect success or failure of the spell, but rather casting time and efficacy of the spell (a bad roll could make it do half damage before to-hits or saves, for example, while a good roll might allow it to be cast as a standard or even move action with normal damage).  We may also want to revisit the secondary (to-hit/save) roll mechanics... I'm thinking TDs should ALWAYS do something, even on a miss or a successful save. 
| Target=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Target}}}
| Target|
}}</onlyinclude>


If we do keep the skill check, I'll need more info... is the CR of the check fixed based on the spell level of the TD? Or does it fluctuate based on the caster level casting it? (If the latter, why would it be harder for a high level caster to cast the same spell as a lower-level caster?)  I would recommend that the DC be fixed by spell level (this is also much easier to program into a template).
| Duration=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Duration}}}
| Duration|
  <!-- Values: Instant, Concentration, 1Round, Combat, Encounter, Day, Moon, Year, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>


Example:
| Save=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save}}}
* Spell level 10 TD (can acquire as early as level 19):
| Save|
:* Impossible DC ({{Skill-DC|Impossible|19}}) - cast as move action
  <!-- Values: None,  
:* Hard DC ({{Skill-DC|Hard|19}}) - cast as standard action
      FortHalf, FortNegates, HFortHalf (for "Harmless (Fort for half damage)"), HFortNegates,
:* Challenging DC ({{Skill-DC|Challenging|19}}) - full round action
      ReflHalf, ReflNegates, HReflHalf, HReflNegates,
:* Average DC ({{Skill-DC|Average|19}}) - full round action, mana-burning costs double?
      WillHalf, WillNegates, HWillHalf, HWillNegates, or anything else
:* Easy DC ({{Skill-DC|Easy|19}}) - full round action, cannot mana-burn?
  -->
:* Failure (Less than easy, or natural 1) - full round action, auto-miss/auto-save (half damage or whatever partial it does on a miss/save)?
}}</onlyinclude>


DC's would then scale based on when the spell slots are potentially available... we can haggle over exact DC's, if you want, but they need to be reachable as soon as someone has TD's available...
| Save-DC=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save-DC}}}
| Save-DC|
  <!-- Values: None, Weak, Strong, Hybrid, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>


==Examples of new True Dweomers==
| Lays-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Charge}}}
* '''10th'''  Corrupt Dweomers:
| Lays-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''11th'''
| Lays-Dual-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Dual-Charge}}}
| Lays-Dual-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''12th'''
| Charge-Notes=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Charge-Notes}}}
| Charge-Notes|
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''13th'''  Accursed Dweomers:
| SR=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|SR}}}
| SR|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>


* '''14th'''
| Description =


==Examples of new Feats==
| ShortDesc=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|ShortDesc}}}
: Truemagic Feats
| ShortDesc|
:*  Truemagic Scribe    - learn three new true dweomers of 10th or 11th level, +1 untyped (circumstance?) to skill rolls to fast cast level, 21 to take
}}</onlyinclude>
:*  Truemagic Supplicant - learn three new true dweomers of 10th thru 13th levels, +1 untyped to skill rolls to fast cast, level 26 to take
:*  Truemagic Ordinate  - learn five new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, +1 untyped to skill rolls to fast cast, ignore 1's, level 26 to take
:*  Truemagic Nominate  - learn six new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, +1 untyped to skill rolls to fast cast, level 31
:*  Truemagic Heirophant  - learn seven new true dweomers of 10th thru 14th levels, +1 untyped to skill rolls to fast cast, level 31


this model has 5 TD levels, and gives 25 TD spells and +5 to fast-cast them (rolling vs Impossible) for 5 feats
| Reviewed=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Reviewed}}}
| Reviewed|
<!-- Values: N (not reviewed) or Y (reviewed); blank defaults to "N" -->
}}</onlyinclude>


* never use untyped. Use Circumstance.
}}
* why unlock 10th and 11th at the same time? Why not one level at a time?
</pre>
* first feat need to be available at 16th, since you can get 10th level slots at 19

Latest revision as of 12:40, 23 February 2022


System and Structure

New True Dweomer Damage Model
Spell Strata Burn Cost Min Level Base Dice max dice range avg Enhanced Maximized Max+Enh Perfected Absolute
1 +3 19th 1d6+6/CL 35d6+210 245-420 332.5 367.5 420 455 490 525
2 +3 21st 1d6+7/CL 35d6+245 280-455 367.5 402.5 455 490 525 560
3 +3 23rd 1d6+8/CL 35d6+280 315-490 402.5 437.5 490 525 560 595
4 +3 25th 1d6+9/CL 35d6+315 350-525 437.5 472.5 525 560 595 630
5 +3 27th 1d6+10/CL 35d6+350 385-560 472.5 507.5 560 595 630 665
6 +3 29th 1d6+11/CL 35d6+385 420-595 507.5 542.5 595 630 665 700
7 +3 31st 1d6+12/CL 35d6+420 455-630 542.5 577.5 630 665 700 735
8 +3 33rd 1d6+13/CL 35d6+455 490-665 577.5 612.5 665 700 735 770
9 +3 35+ 1d6+14/CL 35d6+490 525-700 612.5 647.5 700 735 770 805

Things that can be spell buffed

  • initiative = enchant
  • death checks (minor) = necro
  • Maneuver Offense = trans
  • Maneuver Defense = abj
  • Maneuver Damage adders (scale this HEAVY) = abj
  • Maneuver Damage bonus Dice (scale this HEAVY) = evoc
  • +to-hit (major) = ill
  • Melee to-hit = trans
  • ranged to-hit = trans
  • spell(ray) to-hit = necro


Adders to

  • All damage (major!!) = evoc
  • melee dam = trans
  • ranged dam = ench
  • ray dam = ill
  • spell dam (major!) = ill


Damage dice added to

  • All damage (major!!) = abj
  • melee dam = trans
  • ranged dam = conj
  • ray dam = ill
  • spell dam (major!) = ench


bonuses to

  • weapon Crit range = trans
  • weapon crit severity = necr
  • weapon Crit bonus dice = ench
  • weapon crit numeric adders = ill
  • skill crit range = ench
  • skill crit severity = ill
  • skill rolls (+1 to +2)

Move

  • All Move (Major!) = tran
  • Walk: walk, run, double move 5-ft steps, brachiate = minor = trans, conj
  • Swim: lesser, greater, jet = ench, trans
  • Fly: lesser, greater = necro, conj
  • Hover, Vault = ench, conj
  • Teleport: lesser, greater (major) = evoc, abj
  • Burrow, earth glide? nobuffs!

Current status

  • True Dweomers - data compilation complete


TD Template

{{Template:TD

| Level=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Level}}}
| Level|
}}</onlyinclude>

| School=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|School}}}
| School|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Components=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Components}}}
| Components|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Range=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Range}}}
| Range|
  <!-- Values: Self, Touch, Close, Medium, Long, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Target=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Target}}}
| Target|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Duration=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Duration}}}
| Duration|
  <!-- Values: Instant, Concentration, 1Round, Combat, Encounter, Day, Moon, Year, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Save=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save}}}
| Save|
  <!-- Values: None, 
       FortHalf, FortNegates, HFortHalf (for "Harmless (Fort for half damage)"), HFortNegates, 
       ReflHalf, ReflNegates, HReflHalf, HReflNegates, 
       WillHalf, WillNegates, HWillHalf, HWillNegates, or anything else 
   -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Save-DC=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Save-DC}}}
| Save-DC|
  <!-- Values: None, Weak, Strong, Hybrid, or anything else -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Lays-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Charge}}}
| Lays-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Lays-Dual-Charge=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Lays-Dual-Charge}}}
| Lays-Dual-Charge|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Charge-Notes=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Charge-Notes}}}
| Charge-Notes|
}}</onlyinclude>

| SR=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|SR}}}
| SR|
  <!-- Values: Y, or leave blank -->
}}</onlyinclude>

| Description = 

| ShortDesc=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|ShortDesc}}}
| ShortDesc|
}}</onlyinclude>

| Reviewed=<onlyinclude>{{#ifeq:{{{transcludesection|Reviewed}}}
| Reviewed|
<!-- Values: N (not reviewed) or Y (reviewed); blank defaults to "N" -->
}}</onlyinclude>

}}
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